Let's play a game (General)

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Everyone is redeemable even Tom…Hope isn’t nuts she just wants a guy without divided heart ....there’s no way to praise Liam he was a waffel for years, he’s sneeky back stabbing Finn……he seems to love his children but now they both have a part time dad…..Liam knocked up Hope while Kelly was in steffys womb

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Communication has always been their problem. You'd think they'd have learnt that by now. Most of their problems would not even exist if these two would only learn to talk to each other instead of bolting or turning to someone else.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Hope fell for tom she wasn’t giving him up….there was no Hope.Hopes career is her priority she’s enjoying the ride Liam was her Debbie downer husband ..she just reached her limit…he thought steffy would jump on him glad she didn’t..

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Communication has always been their problem. You'd think they'd have learnt that by now. Most of their problems would not even exist if these two would only learn to talk to each other instead of bolting or turning to someone else.

Hey Bridge are seniors still stupid..glad Hope isn’t going to be a doormat for Liam I think they are done she’s not a doormat like Brooke she don’t want to be when old and desperate and share a guy

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

The difference is that Liam was romantically involved with Steffy from the moment Hope left her ring on his mantle. Probably earlier if we are to believe that it was from the moment he saved her from drowning in the bathtub. He's had three weddings and two pregnancies with her. Hope did not become romantically involved with Tom until a few months ago. She shares a child with him but it's not because they were romantically involved or because they slept together. Even their marriage was not consummated. It has never been shown until very recently that she had a "plan B" whereas Liam's plan B has existed for over a decade. But of course the hypocrite Liam expects Hope to live up to standards that he couldn't possibly even imagine, lol. Hope lived with it for years, but Liam couldn't tolerate it for even a few months. And that's ok. It's just one more way to showcase his double standard.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam asked for a divorce without even trying to see if the marriage could be fixed, saved, counseling, anything, no nothing, so Hope was right, he walked out to chase Steffy, that what he has been shown to be doing since he signed the divorce paper. And that is not even fair to Steffy, Liam is over the rebound and should stay to himself for a while, but he won't even do that, Liam is awful.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

The difference is that Liam was romantically involved with Steffy from the moment Hope left her ring on his mantle. Probably earlier if we are to believe that it was from the moment he saved her from drowning in the bathtub. He's had three weddings and two pregnancies with her. Hope did not become romantically involved with Tom until a few months ago. She shares a child with him but it's not because they were romantically involved or because they slept together. Even their marriage was not consummated. It has never been shown until very recently that she had a "plan B" whereas Liam's plan B has existed for over a decade. But of course the hypocrite Liam expects Hope to live up to standards that he couldn't possibly even imagine, lol. Hope lived with it for years, but Liam couldn't tolerate it for even a few months. And that's ok. It's just one more way to showcase his double standard.

Excellent point. And to make it even worse, Liam allowed Steffy into their relationship knowing how cruel she was to Hope.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam asked for a divorce without even trying to see if the marriage could be fixed, saved, counseling, anything, no nothing, so Hope was right, he walked out to chase Steffy, that what he has been shown to be doing since he signed the divorce paper. And that is not even fair to Steffy, Liam is over the rebound and should stay to himself for a while, but he won't even do that, Liam is awful.

Great post. I won't talk about his lack of respect for his own marriage, since it will be brought up that Hope didn't respect that either, but what about his lack of respect for Sinns marriage? What about his complete lack of respect for his supposed "best friend" who is now a married woman with two kids? If he's so worried about his daughter the logical thing to do would be to remove her from the cliff house while Sheila is a threat and have her stay with him and let Sinn deal with Sheila and their marriage. Hayes and Steffy are not his responsibility. They are Finn's. And however Finn is behaving, that matter is between him and Steffy. Liam is deliberately inserting himself into their marriage on the pretext of being worried about their daughter but Kelly hasn't even been on Sheila's radar. The man can't possibly get any more transparent.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

The difference is that Liam was romantically involved with Steffy from the moment Hope left her ring on his mantle. Probably earlier if we are to believe that it was from the moment he saved her from drowning in the bathtub. He's had three weddings and two pregnancies with her. Hope did not become romantically involved with Tom until a few months ago. She shares a child with him but it's not because they were romantically involved or because they slept together. Even their marriage was not consummated. It has never been shown until very recently that she had a "plan B" whereas Liam's plan B has existed for over a decade. But of course the hypocrite Liam expects Hope to live up to standards that he couldn't possibly even imagine, lol. Hope lived with it for years, but Liam couldn't tolerate it for even a few months. And that's ok. It's just one more way to showcase his double standard.

Excellent point. And to make it even worse, Liam allowed Steffy into their relationship knowing how cruel she was to Hope.

Yep. After the gondola incident and Steffy lying about it I don't even know how she still stood a chance.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

Very true

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

I think that Liam's biggest issue is that he can't be alone for one second. After losing his mother to cancer and not having a father while growing up he seems to be totally dependent on someone else being interested in him. I believe that Steffy was able to get so close to him because she was always willing to give everything that Hope couldn't (at the time). Seems like she was everything that Thomas is currently for Hope. I watched the episodes when Steffy and Liam were first engaged and married and it's insane how Steffy was catering to every needs he ever had. She looked more like a slave than a partner. Desperation was just oozing out of her and he loved every moment of it despite longing for Hope and telling Brooke that what he and Steffy have isn't even close to what he and Hope had. One moment he was longing after Hope and after 2 minutes he gladly took the sex Steffy offered. At home, at the office or wherever he could get it. He is still trying to use Steffy like he did in the past. He can't have Hope? Oh well... So it's time to take Steffy out of his back-pocket. She's married to a man that really loves her? Whatever. Hope is acting selfish now, but Liam has been acting selfish shortly after joining B&B and he continues until today. Those are years of endless selfishness. That's why I don't get why Liam is seen as this poor, good husband and Hope as the ultimate villain. I'm confused.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam asked for a divorce without even trying to see if the marriage could be fixed, saved, counseling, anything, no nothing, so Hope was right, he walked out to chase Steffy, that what he has been shown to be doing since he signed the divorce paper. And that is not even fair to Steffy, Liam is over the rebound and should stay to himself for a while, but he won't even do that, Liam is awful.

Yeah he will gladly complicate Steffy and Finn's lives to feel better about himself. It's an issue and he should work on it. Both Liam and Hope need therapy for different reasons.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

I think that Liam's biggest issue is that he can't be alone for one second. After losing his mother to cancer and not having a father while growing up he seems to be totally dependent on someone else being interested in him. I believe that Steffy was able to get so close to him because she was always willing to give everything that Hope couldn't (at the time). Seems like she was everything that Thomas is currently for Hope. I watched the episodes when Steffy and Liam were first engaged and married and it's insane how Steffy was catering to every needs he ever had. She looked more like a slave than a partner. Desperation was just oozing out of her and he loved every moment of it despite longing for Hope and telling Brooke that what he and Steffy have isn't even close to what he and Hope had. One moment he was longing after Hope and after 2 minutes he gladly took the sex Steffy offered. At home, at the office or wherever he could get it. He is still trying to use Steffy like he did in the past. He can't have Hope? Oh well... So it's time to take Steffy out of his back-pocket. She's married to a man that really loves her? Whatever. Hope is acting selfish now, but Liam has been acting selfish shortly after joining B&B and he continues until today. Those are years of endless selfishness. That's why I don't get why Liam is seen as this poor, good husband and Hope as the ultimate villain. I'm confused.

I am too. Hope is certainly acting out of character and her behaviour makes no sense but Liam has also made many, many mistakes, and they've been completely in character for him! I guess Hope falling for Liam's bully trumps everything Liam has ever done, even though he fell for Hopes bully. But somehow that's ok, lol.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

I think that Liam's biggest issue is that he can't be alone for one second. After losing his mother to cancer and not having a father while growing up he seems to be totally dependent on someone else being interested in him. I believe that Steffy was able to get so close to him because she was always willing to give everything that Hope couldn't (at the time). Seems like she was everything that Thomas is currently for Hope. I watched the episodes when Steffy and Liam were first engaged and married and it's insane how Steffy was catering to every needs he ever had. She looked more like a slave than a partner. Desperation was just oozing out of her and he loved every moment of it despite longing for Hope and telling Brooke that what he and Steffy have isn't even close to what he and Hope had. One moment he was longing after Hope and after 2 minutes he gladly took the sex Steffy offered. At home, at the office or wherever he could get it. He is still trying to use Steffy like he did in the past. He can't have Hope? Oh well... So it's time to take Steffy out of his back-pocket. She's married to a man that really loves her? Whatever. Hope is acting selfish now, but Liam has been acting selfish shortly after joining B&B and he continues until today. Those are years of endless selfishness. That's why I don't get why Liam is seen as this poor, good husband and Hope as the ultimate villain. I'm confused.

I am too. Hope is certainly acting out of character and her behaviour makes no sense but Liam has also made many, many mistakes, and they've been completely in character for him! I guess Hope falling for Liam's bully trumps everything Liam has ever done, even though he fell for Hopes bully. But somehow that's ok, lol.

I think the writers wanted to show Liam's hypocrisy since years now. Even when he said to Hope that he begs her to forgive him something that he wouldn't forgive her in 2020.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

I am not a fan of Liam or any character but when a character is in the wrong and has done inexcusable things, I can defend the one who from my own pov who seems to be the victim in this merry go round. And for me, that is Liam.

Liam isn't a saint, he is far from it. He lacks self-awareness, he is indecisive, he is whiny, he is a waffler like most of the characters on the show and he doesn't seem to know how to communicate. But he is a good and loving father to his daughters and can be a good husband if you erase his past. But in this particular merry go round, i defend him as i see clown Hope in the wrong. If we are to blame Liam for his indiscretions, I'd like to do the same for Hope. What she did is inexcusable regardless of Liam's past and it does not excuse Hope or make her look like a victim. She is using the steam factor and blaming everyone for her own sh*t she passed around but I suppose a lot of this is plot driven.

What Liam needs is to honestly get a brain and start thinking, forget about Steffy and Hope and start thinking about the two daughters he need to raise. I think he can be much better without Steffy and Hope because their toxic on their own and seeing Liam as a mature, aware, grown up character with someone who can challenge him is something positive I'd like for the character but that seems like wishful thinking. Liam needs to be changed and written differently now, because now he is just like who he was years ago, spineless.

Very very very true!

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

I am not a fan of Liam or any character but when a character is in the wrong and has done inexcusable things, I can defend the one who from my own pov who seems to be the victim in this merry go round. And for me, that is Liam.

Liam isn't a saint, he is far from it. He lacks self-awareness, he is indecisive, he is whiny, he is a waffler like most of the characters on the show and he doesn't seem to know how to communicate. But he is a good and loving father to his daughters and can be a good husband if you erase his past. But in this particular merry go round, i defend him as i see clown Hope in the wrong. If we are to blame Liam for his indiscretions, I'd like to do the same for Hope. What she did is inexcusable regardless of Liam's past and it does not excuse Hope or make her look like a victim. She is using the steam factor and blaming everyone for her own sh*t she passed around but I suppose a lot of this is plot driven.

What Liam needs is to honestly get a brain and start thinking, forget about Steffy and Hope and start thinking about the two daughters he need to raise. I think he can be much better without Steffy and Hope because their toxic on their own and seeing Liam as a mature, aware, grown up character with someone who can challenge him is something positive I'd like for the character but that seems like wishful thinking. Liam needs to be changed and written differently now, because now he is just like who he was years ago, spineless.

I love this post except for Liam being a victim. He was, yes, but he stopped being one the moment he kissed Steffy after seeing Hope and Thomas. And the point Hope was trying to make was proved in that same moment. The rest of your post is thoughtful, well written and makes a lot of sense. I too agree that Liam needs to be alone for a while. The problem is they never have the characters self reflect. Ridge was supposed to do that when he was off screen but when he came back he was still the same. I wouldn't be surprised if Liam remains the same too, in spite of the current story that shines a light on his and Hopes issues.

Very good post!!

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

It’s simple, because he’s shown a level selfishness never seen before on this and he always gets away with his mess, the writing goes over the top to make a villain out his rivals so he looks good in comparison.
I would never fall for it nor root any pairing involving him. Hope is my fave character but I loathe and loathe Hope in a relationship with Liam. He makes her insecure, weak and makes her compete with that rotten human being that is Steffy. It’s unbelievable.
And what’s sad is that Liam will never and Hope will go back to accepting less than what she deserves from him for herself and her daughter.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

It’s simple, because he’s shown a level selfishness never seen before on this and he always gets away with his mess, the writing goes over the top to make a villain out his rivals so he looks good in comparison.
I would never fall for it nor root any pairing involving him. Hope is my fave character but I loathe and loathe Hope in a relationship with Liam. He makes her insecure, weak and makes her compete with that rotten human being that is Steffy. It’s unbelievable.
And what’s sad is that Liam will never and Hope will go back to accepting less than what she deserves from him for herself and her daughter.

Great post.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Liam said he wanted a divorce and went straight to Steffy and kissed her. Why would Hope want to continue with this circus?

Liam has a long history of cheating on, not listening to, respecting or even truly being empathetic to his partners.

He shows no insight or remorse for his actions and is more upset about getting caught than truly making amends.

He exploited an already volatile relationship between Hope and Steffy and pits the 2 against each other for his own gain and sure one can pretend it is not for malicious ends, I don't see how it can't be.

He knew the dynamic between the 2 girls/now women and he STILL had relationships and kids with them.

There is nothing pure or good in his actions.

Nevermind asking the woman you supposedly love to abort another man's child is gross to the core.

He needs a lobotomy before I think he can be redeemable.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Lol, he kissed Steffy before they even had that conversation. Twice!

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Lol, he kissed Steffy before they even had that conversation. Twice!

And threw Steffy in Hope's face once again. I don't know how Hope was expected to continue to try and salvage that marriage after that.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

I don't think it was clear she wasn't going to give him up. What she did was she admitted that the feelings for Thomas were real. And that basically puts her and Liam on equal footing, doesn't it?

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Lol, he kissed Steffy before they even had that conversation. Twice!

And threw Steffy in Hope's face once again. I don't know how Hope was expected to continue to try and salvage that marriage after that.

Exactly. At that point she decided to explore the feelings for Thomas.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

I don't think it was clear she wasn't going to give him up. What she did was she admitted that the feelings for Thomas were real. And that basically puts her and Liam on equal footing, doesn't it?

Exactly. When did Liam actually give Steffy up?

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is far from a saint. But he's not evil, either. He doesn't intentionally hurt people. I think his main issue is that he lacks self-awareness. He never sees that what he's doing is a problem until it's too late.

Liam and Hope's marriage could have been salvaged if he had just listened to what Hope was saying and tried to understand it. She never said that she thought Liam was actively thinking about being with Steffy or even that he was pining for her. She said the fact that he gave up on their marriage so easily and went straight to divorce was because he knew he had someone else he could turn to. Another person that he loved. And he proved that to be true several times already since he saw Hope kiss Thomas.

Just because he said the word divorce means nothing if Hope truly wanted to save her marriage she didn’t that is just her trying to save face she immediately made destroyed any chance of the marriage being saved by jumping in bed with Thomas proving Liam right she chose when she kissed Thomas in Paris Liam could have easily thought about the situation came to her and said he wanted to work on it he didn’t go to divorce express and file like she did.

Lol, he kissed Steffy before they even had that conversation. Twice!

That is how I remember

Liam has a long history of cheating on, not listening to, respecting or even truly being empathetic to his partners.

He shows no insight or remorse for his actions and is more upset about getting caught than truly making amends.

He exploited an already volatile relationship between Hope and Steffy and pits the 2 against each other for his own gain and sure one can pretend it is not for malicious ends, I don't see how it can't be.

He knew the dynamic between the 2 girls/now women and he STILL had relationships and kids with them.

There is nothing pure or good in his actions.

Nevermind asking the woman you supposedly love to abort another man's child is gross to the core.

He needs a lobotomy before I think he can be redeemable.

That could work

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

I don't think it was clear she wasn't going to give him up. What she did was she admitted that the feelings for Thomas were real. And that basically puts her and Liam on equal footing, doesn't it?

Exactly. When did Liam actually give Steffy up?

He won't even admit it's a problem.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

He either needs a personality transplant or SC (who I like!) would have to join the show as Liam's nicer twin brother, a faithful man, a real man, who respects women.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

I don't think it was clear she wasn't going to give him up. What she did was she admitted that the feelings for Thomas were real. And that basically puts her and Liam on equal footing, doesn't it?

She clearly told Thomas that what happened there wasn’t coming home with them and she wanted her family with Liam, so if anything was clear, it was her intention to forget Thomas and be with Liam.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

We never got far enough into their discussion to find out if Hope would have given Thomas up. Liam immediately shut it down by saying he wanted a divorce.

But prior to the discussion - it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up! For months she put her career before her family and husband in favor of Thomas. IMO, it was clear she wasn’t going to give him up. She found reason upon reason to keep Thomas in the fold. We shall ageee to disagree.

I don't think it was clear she wasn't going to give him up. What she did was she admitted that the feelings for Thomas were real. And that basically puts her and Liam on equal footing, doesn't it?

She clearly told Thomas that what happened there wasn’t coming home with them and she wanted her family with Liam, so if anything was clear, it was her intention to forget Thomas and be with Liam.

I thought so too. And she could have lied and said she didn't have any feelings for Thomas. But she was honest about that.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

All I know is both Steffy and Hope are "in" love wth Liam so I guess his bad traits aren't so bad in their eyes. They keep running back.

Liam has many things going for him. He only has one flaw. He doesn’t have the guts to make a decision about his love life. That one flaw may be a deal breaker for many women but in that he’s far from alone. It’s a common soap trait. I blame the women for allowing Liam to play them against the other but nearly all the female characters tolerate that trait. I still believe in his heart of hearts, Liam is a decent guy.

All I know is both Steffy and Hope are "in" love wth Liam so I guess his bad traits aren't so bad in their eyes. They keep running back.

Liam has a lot of good traits.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

All I know is both Steffy and Hope are "in" love wth Liam so I guess his bad traits aren't so bad in their eyes. They keep running back.

I really don’t see Steffy in love with Liam. She seems to love her husband
Hope may still be nut realizes Liam isn’t worth it.
Eventually, both women will figure out Liam is a loser. Seems to already be in play

Liam has many things going for him. He only has one flaw. He doesn’t have the guts to make a decision about his love life. That one flaw may be a deal breaker for many women but in that he’s far from alone. It’s a common soap trait. I blame the women for allowing Liam and to play them against the other but nearly all the female characters tolerate that trait. I still believe in his heart of hearts, Liam is a decent guy.

That's the problem. This kind of behaviour would never be accepted in real life. But on a soap, not only is it standard, he's actually described as a good guy by everyone around him. Hope is taking a stand now after years, but I'm pretty sure that too is temporary. Lope will be back together soon and once again Liam will go sniffing around Steffy when Hope disappoints him, and they both and their parents will STILL continue to refer to him as a great guy.

Liam has many things going for him. He only has one flaw. He doesn’t have the guts to make a decision about his love life. That one flaw may be a deal breaker for many women but in that he’s far from alone. It’s a common soap trait. I blame the women for allowing Liam to play them against the other but nearly all the female characters tolerate that trait. I still believe in his heart of hearts, Liam is a decent guy.

Agree, except I think he has made the decision. But he keeps a fallback plan in his back pocket. And that is worse than not deciding.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Liam has many things going for him. He only has one flaw. He doesn’t have the guts to make a decision about his love life. That one flaw may be a deal breaker for many women but in that he’s far from alone. It’s a common soap trait. I blame the women for allowing Liam to play them against the other but nearly all the female characters tolerate that trait. I still believe in his heart of hearts, Liam is a decent guy.

So while the women have some responsibility for allowing Liam to continue being a snake, it is all their fault? Liam has no responsibility for being a waffler! Wow

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is a serial cheater. He is constantly thinking about what is best for him or his needs and which woman can provide that. He’s also quick to point a finger and has proven with both Hope and Steffy that he isn’t good at accepting his own faults nor can he forgive without punishing first. He’s selfish, entitled and can be quite cruel and condescending. I won’t or can’t forgive his behavior because it’s who he really is, not just isolated incidents. For me at least Liam’s actions through the years are indefensible, because he repeats them over and over.

I should have been clearer. Liam is responsible for how he behaves and treats others. I blame the women for tolerating his back pocket plan for so many years. Steffy actually encouraged it in hopes she could get him to change his mind about Hope. I do not think Hope ever presented herself as a back pocket plan, but she should have not gotten involved with Liam when his marriage to Steffy fell apart. She put and kept herself in this situation even after the one night stand. The women are responsible for the choices they make in response to Liam’s actions.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

Guess don’t matter now anyway

I should have been clearer. Liam is responsible for how he behaves and treats others. I blame the women for tolerating his back pocket plan for so many years. Steffy actually encouraged it in hopes she could get him to change his mind about Hope. I do not think Hope ever presented herself as a back pocket plan, but she should have not gotten involved with Liam when his marriage to Steffy fell apart. She put and kept herself in this situation even after the one night stand. The women are responsible for the choices they make in response to Liam’s actions.

Thank you. I get it now and you are correct

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Liam is a serial cheater. He is constantly thinking about what is best for him or his needs and which woman can provide that. He’s also quick to point a finger and has proven with both Hope and Steffy that he isn’t good at accepting his own faults nor can he forgive without punishing first. He’s selfish, entitled and can be quite cruel and condescending. I won’t or can’t forgive his behavior because it’s who he really is, not just isolated incidents. For me at least Liam’s actions through the years are indefensible, because he repeats them over and over.

Excellent post

I adore SC but hate his character.

And not even the love to hate that I have for Steffy and Sheila but loath his character and how he is somehow a hero in any story he is in baffles me.

Like Ridge.

Can't stand his character either

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

Outstanding post of Liam. Great insight into the character and who he actually is.

The last paragraph is so very true.

Liam has many things going for him. He only has one flaw. He doesn’t have the guts to make a decision about his love life. That one flaw may be a deal breaker for many women but in that he’s far from alone. It’s a common soap trait. I blame the women for allowing Liam to play them against the other but nearly all the female characters tolerate that trait. I still believe in his heart of hearts, Liam is a decent guy.

And that is part of their problem. Hope expected Liam to give up Steffy, but she couldn’t do the same with Tom. It seems to me that Hope also had a plan B back up guy in her pocket named Tom. In all honesty, Hope also confided I’m Tom her marital problems with Liam. I don’t see any difference really.

So much for not bringing up Thomas. Liam has been hanging onto Steffy for years

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

--
Shown on screen, Steffy blackmailed Bill. Yet, she told Ivy (and Liam too) that “blackmail is a crime”. Per Steffy’s own words, she IS a criminal cuz she has blackmailed.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Waffling king Ridge has been shown referred to as a "good person" by Brooke, Taylor and others.

--
Shown on screen, Steffy blackmailed Bill. Yet, she told Ivy (and Liam too) that “blackmail is a crime”. Per Steffy’s own words, she IS a criminal cuz she has blackmailed.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Waffling king Ridge has been shown referred to as a "good person" by Brooke, Taylor and others.

Point taken. But it's the same story as Liam I'm not very happy with Brooke either for taking him back after all her grandstanding.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Waffling king Ridge has been shown referred to as a "good person" by Brooke, Taylor and others.

Point taken. But it's the same story as Liam I'm not very happy with Brooke either for taking him back after all her grandstanding.

Unfortunately on this show..when it comes to these male characters, I as a viewer have to set low expectations. JMO.

--
Shown on screen, Steffy blackmailed Bill. Yet, she told Ivy (and Liam too) that “blackmail is a crime”. Per Steffy’s own words, she IS a criminal cuz she has blackmailed.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

I agree with some of this. I've always said that Liam is the guy that never tries to hurt anyone but winds up hurting everyone. His bad rap is well deserved, though. Any lose/lose position he's been in has been of his own doing.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Waffling king Ridge has been shown referred to as a "good person" by Brooke, Taylor and others.

Point taken. But it's the same story as Liam I'm not very happy with Brooke either for taking him back after all her grandstanding.

Unfortunately on this show..when it comes to these male characters, I as a viewer have to set low expectations. JMO.

Yup. That's what you have to do if you want to ship a couple on this show. It's pretty sad, really.

--
"I love you more than anything or anyone in the world. And I want you by my side for the rest of my life."

"You're the love of my life."

Liam to Hope. Debate over.

Let's try to defend Liam without bringing up Tom. We know what Tom has done. Yes he's a villain. Yes he's not redeemable. Yes Hope is nuts to fall for him.

But in a post about Liam, can we try to talk about Liam without bringing up Tom? Can Liam be defended on a stand alone basis or is it that the only way to make Liam look good is to bring up someone worse than him? If so then it just proves the point that Liam is really not a very good person if he stands alone without any comparisons. Bringing up Tom does not magically make Liam a saint.

Just my two cents.

Well, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

For the most part, Liam falls under the heading of the "good" guy. Why? Because he tries to do the right thing. Unfortunately, in trying to do the right thing, he makes a complete mess of things. It's seldom intentional, it's simply an act now in the moment mentality. Seeing the big picture is not Liam's forte. He's what you would call short-sighted. But, his heart is usually in the right place.

Liam is protective to the max, most likely because he was the one who had to take care of his mom when she was dying. That experience most likely resulted in a "rescuing people to his detriment" kind of cycle. When he was with Hope and thought he had gotten Amber pregnant, he tried to do the right thing by sticking by Amber. When he saved Steffy from drowning, he was caught up in preventing his dad from hurting Katie. When he fought with his dad over Bill's treatment of Sally, he was trying to right the wrongs he perceived were unjustly aimed at Sally. When he married Ivy to keep her from being deported, he prioritized Ivy's needs ahead of his own. Liam unconsciously forms a white knight kind of attachment to people that he can't seem to break and that comes at a cost. He stays with Amber, Hope is hurt. He feels bad for Steffy because of what happened with his dad, Hope is hurt. He fights for Sally, Steffy is hurt. He marries Ivy, Steffy is hurt. Liam's history is littered with choices that make one person happy at the expense of another but in that moment when the choice is made it's all about the person standing in front of him. Again, he has no thought about the hurt that may result. He only thinks of the happiness he can provide in the moment. The rescuer tends not to see beyond the moment.

Liam's behaviour and actions after Beth's death really demonstrated the type of person Liam is. Despite is pain and suffering, he put Hope's needs ahead of his own. His love for Hope was never more apparent than during that time. His sole focus was Hope. And, even though Hope put him through hell, he didn't waver from their connection as a couple. '

Now, the weird thing about Liam is how intuitive he can be. Obviously, it is situation specific, but he can read a room like no other. He has an uncanny ability to sense that something is off. He knew something was off about Beth's death and he fought tooth and nail to find the answer. He knew that Thomas was up to no good and he went the extra mile to save Hope. He saw through Bill in the Sheila situation so much so that Bill nearly confided in him. Knew something was up with Hope. Knew something was up with Finn.

Liam has a big heart and it shows in his interactions with Douglas in particular. I am a sucker for a dad and son moment and no matter how bratty or difficult that kid can be, Liam loves him like he's his own. Without a doubt, Liam has loved that boy and done more for that boy and than any other male in Douglas' life.

IMO, Liam suffers from a bad wrap. Doesn't matter how many times Liam has apologized and owned his mistakes, and he has countless times, and it doesn't matter the years of his prolonged loyalty to people, I find the expectations placed on this character are far greater than any other character on the show. He is expected to demonstrate unwavering allegiance. He is not allowed to show weakness. When he makes a decision and stands by it, he is admonished for being selfish and unyielding and unforgiving. It's always a lose/lose for Liam. No matter what he does, it's wrong.

None of that explains his tendency to not want to be alone for even a second. If it's all about the person standing in front of him, does it make no difference that the person is married to someone who considers him a friend? I know you explained that he apologized and so the matter is over, but fact is that the matter is over because Steffy shut him down. History has shown that when Steffy is willing, Liam does not hesitate to use her any way he wants. Honestly, I was starting to like Liam after how loyal and faithful he was to Hope. I even mentioned in a couple of posts that I couldn't believe I was defending him. But when push came to shove he showed once again that he hasn't changed one bit. The story is extremely poorly written in that Hope should have taken a stand when Liam was actively spending time/talking about/having some connection with Steffy. But the issue on which Hope took a stand is not nonexistent. Liam himself proved it not two seconds after Hope kissed Thomas. An apology only works when the person apologizing realizes that their behaviour should not be repeated. But Liam apologizes and then repeats the same behaviour, over and over and over again. He has been called out on at least three different occasions by three different women, Hope, Steffy and Ivy, on this issue. But in the next moment they are all back to fawning over him and forget completely why they called him out. And as a result Liam never changes. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen with Hope this time. And that is what is so frustrating for this viewer. Stop calling him this wonderful, decent, amazing guy. I've seen for myself what he is like and I don't need it shoved down my throat that he's a catch when that simply is not true.

But NONE of the main guys on this show is considered a "catch", so not just Liam. All these men have their own flaws..everyone one of them. JMO.

Tell me which other guy is repeatedly referred to as a "good person" and someone who the parents keep pushing their daughters to be with? Even Thorne, who was genuinely a good guy, didn't get any of those accolades.

Waffling king Ridge has been shown referred to as a "good person" by Brooke, Taylor and others.

Point taken. But it's the same story as Liam I'm not very happy with Brooke either for taking him back after all her grandstanding.

Unfortunately on this show..when it comes to these male characters, I as a viewer have to set low expectations. JMO.

I'm sorry
But these female characters are no prizes either.