Do manipulations absolve a cheater of any blame? (General)

Just a quick question. Consider this situation:
- X and Y are together
- M manipulates X
- X cheats on Y with Z or leaves Y for Z because of M's manipulations
- X learns the truth about M's manipulations
- X leaves Z and goes back to Y

Is X a victim or is X a cheater? I know each case has a few differences, but these situations are always similar.

- Last example was Ridge and Taylor. Thomas manipulated him. Thomas was wrong. But does the fact that Thomas manipulated absolve Ridge? Does it justify how he left Brooke and slept with Taylor, and then how he left Taylor at the altar? Does it justify his lies to both women?
- Another example is Liam and Steffy's kiss in Italy. Bill and Deacon manipulated them. Liam thought Hope left him, so he kissed Steffy and kept it secret in his vows. He learnt Hope didn't leave him after all and stayed with her. Do Bill and Deacon's manipulations absolve Liam and Steffy?
- Another example is Hope and Wyatt's lovemaking in Monte-Carlo. Quinn manipulated them. Hope thought her fiancee wasn't coming, so she slept with Wyatt and married him. She learnt Liam was there and later she left Wyatt. Do Quinn's manipulations absolve Hope and Wyatt?

Is this all the manipulator's fault? Or do the cheaters deserve punishment too?

No, it doesn't absolve them. All characters need to be treated the way Brooke was when Sheila manipulated Brooke's drinks and Brooke wound up kissing Deacon. Characters on the show still wanted to hold Brooke accountable for that kiss. Same should go for the rest of them then.

For Brooke, I totally absolve her in this case. :) Sheila made her drink alcohol. Brooke didn't know it was alcohol and that's the only reason why she kissed Deacon. I don't blame Steffy, Rdge, Thomas and Taylor for bashing her before they knew the truth about Sheila. But once they learnt the reason why Brooke drank, they should have apologized to her. Instead they continued to make her pay and judge her, that was terrible.

So we agree, it doesn't absolve the cheaters. I can absolve Caroline for sleeping with Thomas because he pretty much raped her. Or Liam for the night Thomas drugged him. But in other cases, a manipulation should not excuse them.

Just a quick question. Consider this situation:
- X and Y are together
- M manipulates X
- X cheats on Y with Z or leaves Y for Z because of M's manipulations
- X learns the truth about M's manipulations
- X leaves Z and goes back to Y

Is X a victim or is X a cheater? I know each case has a few differences, but these situations are always similar.

- Last example was Ridge and Taylor. Thomas manipulated him. Thomas was wrong. But does the fact that Thomas manipulated absolve Ridge? Does it justify how he left Brooke and slept with Taylor, and then how he left Taylor at the altar? Does it justify his lies to both women?
- Another example is Liam and Steffy's kiss in Italy. Bill and Deacon manipulated them. Liam thought Hope left him, so he kissed Steffy and kept it secret in his vows. He learnt Hope didn't leave him after all and stayed with her. Do Bill and Deacon's manipulations absolve Liam and Steffy?
- Another example is Hope and Wyatt's lovemaking in Monte-Carlo. Quinn manipulated them. Hope thought her fiancee wasn't coming, so she slept with Wyatt and married him. She learnt Liam was there and later she left Wyatt. Do Quinn's manipulations absolve Hope and Wyatt?

Is this all the manipulator's fault? Or do the cheaters deserve punishment too?

1) Nope.... It does not matter what Thomas did in this case. Sleazy Ridge pretty much cheated on Brooke with Taylor the moment she flew in on her broomstick. He flaunted his floozy in front of his family as well as Brooke's family, while Brooke sat home trying to be supportive of her husbands needs to be with his evil spawns. Then instead of just breaking off things with his wife, the jerk ran off with his floozy and committed adultery with her. (Nothing absolves Ridge of his cheating with either Shauna or Katie before Taylor or Taylor this time around.)

2) It is messy, but I can understand things from Liam's point of view. The thing is Steffy knew what Bill was up to something, so NO it does not absolve Steffy. Liam was stupid to not have faith in Hope.

3) Hope told Liam to meet her at a certain time and if he wasn't there she would consider Liam not wanting to marry her and she would consider them over. Liam never told Hope that he would be there. He did not bother to call her. Any misunderstanding is on Liam. Hope did wait for him to show up, but of course Wyatt was talking her into going with him and not waiting any longer. I guess Hope was supposed to sit there for hours and hours, days and days, months and months, years and decades for Liam to show up before some are satisfied. Remember too, that Hope left Wyatt because he would not protect her from his evil and crazy mother and ended up losing their baby. She did not leave Wyatt for Liam. Liam tried to convince her to, but she did not.

I agree for 1)

For 2) Liam should have called Hope when he saw the breakup note. He sure shouldn't have kissed and professed his love to Steffy. Bill was wrong but it doesn't absolve Liam. At the very least he should have told Hope the truth before the ceremony. The fact that he lied for weeks made things worse. I agree about Steffy, she was no better than Bill at the time. Even when Liam came back to her months later she still didn't tell him she had doubts about Bill's involvment.

For 3) Hope should have contacted Liam. No need to wait for hours. She could have gone back to LA and married Liam in LA. He proposed to her and she said YES, she should have looked for him and broken up with him first if she wanted to move on with Wyatt. I rewatched episode 6883 on Youtube. Hope-Liam never said they would consider it's over if he doesn't come. They agree to get married if he comes and that's it. They never make any additional comments about "what if I don't come". They kiss and Hope walk out. Hope cheated on Liam that day, because they were still together when she slept with Wyatt. Quinn's scheme doesn't absolve her.

I only listed 3 examples here. I know Brooke and Ridge and Hope and Liam have been manipulated countless times but they are still stupid and unreliable people. They can't blame all their mistakes on the manipulators.

Just a quick question. Consider this situation:
- X and Y are together
- M manipulates X
- X cheats on Y with Z or leaves Y for Z because of M's manipulations
- X learns the truth about M's manipulations
- X leaves Z and goes back to Y

Is X a victim or is X a cheater? I know each case has a few differences, but these situations are always similar.

- Last example was Ridge and Taylor. Thomas manipulated him. Thomas was wrong. But does the fact that Thomas manipulated absolve Ridge? Does it justify how he left Brooke and slept with Taylor, and then how he left Taylor at the altar? Does it justify his lies to both women?
- Another example is Liam and Steffy's kiss in Italy. Bill and Deacon manipulated them. Liam thought Hope left him, so he kissed Steffy and kept it secret in his vows. He learnt Hope didn't leave him after all and stayed with her. Do Bill and Deacon's manipulations absolve Liam and Steffy?
- Another example is Hope and Wyatt's lovemaking in Monte-Carlo. Quinn manipulated them. Hope thought her fiancee wasn't coming, so she slept with Wyatt and married him. She learnt Liam was there and later she left Wyatt. Do Quinn's manipulations absolve Hope and Wyatt?

Is this all the manipulator's fault? Or do the cheaters deserve punishment too?

No, the manipulations do not absolve the characters. They are to blame too for making stupid decisions. In the case of Liam and Hope they had a serious lack of communication. Each of them was quick to make an impulsive decision when they thought the other had let them down, without talking to the other first. The reason I blame Liam more than Hope for those years of the terrible triangle is because Hope eventually wised up to the manipulation. She left Wyatt and moved away. Now she doesn't even talk to him. Whereas Liam never, ever wised up to Steffy. He was actually the first one to let let her come between him and Hope. He never held her accountable for all the years of misery she put him and Hope through. He kept letting her into his life over and over again in spite of the damage she had caused. Even now he still has a soft spot for her. He will tell Hope that Steffy was wrong to give her an ultimatum but I have yet to hear him tell Steffy the same thing.

Hope only "moved away" from Wyatt because Kim's contract was up. When she came back 3 years later, Wyatt had moved on and never showed an ounce of interest in her again. Honestly, she waffled between Liam and Wyatt for as long as the brothers wanted her. Bell planned to continue this never ending triangle until Kim chose to quit. And if Wyatt was single and willing to reconnect with Hope when she returned (when Liam had Kelly with Steffy), nothing tells me she wouldn't have waffled between them again.

She never held Wyatt accountable for his lies and manipulations. He conspired with his mom, kept secrets, stole a diamond and she still married him. In the end, the only reproach she had was that he couldn't keep his mother away from her. I can't give her too much credit for that. Not a word about the way he treated his brother and how he stalked her and interfered in her relationships.

I also stopped seeing her (any anyone else) as a victim of Thomas' manipulations a long time ago. From the moment she learnt he knew about Beth and saw him trying kidnap her and murder Liam right in front of her, she should have never allowed him to be in the same room. I will continue to blame Thomas for his crap but I'm done feeling sorry for his "victims". Same goes for Steffy and all the idiots who keep forgiving him.

I agree and this is why never liked Liam again after he put Hope´s ring on Steffy´s finger. It looked like he wanted to say: I´ll take any of them, Hope, Steffy...it´s all the same to me! (And this on the evening before his wedding to Hope). Five minutes before he had made out with Steffy in the car...this was the moment when I stopped liking Liam. The rest is history, Liam waffling between them for a decade, just not during the time when Hope was in Italy. Even when he was manipulated by his father, by Deacon, by Steffy herself, he crossed red lines much too easily, he loved being a waffler and knowing both women wanted him.
So no, manipulations don´t always absolve a cheater...

Just a quick question. Consider this situation:
- X and Y are together
- M manipulates X
- X cheats on Y with Z or leaves Y for Z because of M's manipulations
- X learns the truth about M's manipulations
- X leaves Z and goes back to Y

Is X a victim or is X a cheater? I know each case has a few differences, but these situations are always similar.

- Last example was Ridge and Taylor. Thomas manipulated him. Thomas was wrong. But does the fact that Thomas manipulated absolve Ridge? Does it justify how he left Brooke and slept with Taylor, and then how he left Taylor at the altar? Does it justify his lies to both women?
- Another example is Liam and Steffy's kiss in Italy. Bill and Deacon manipulated them. Liam thought Hope left him, so he kissed Steffy and kept it secret in his vows. He learnt Hope didn't leave him after all and stayed with her. Do Bill and Deacon's manipulations absolve Liam and Steffy?
- Another example is Hope and Wyatt's lovemaking in Monte-Carlo. Quinn manipulated them. Hope thought her fiancee wasn't coming, so she slept with Wyatt and married him. She learnt Liam was there and later she left Wyatt. Do Quinn's manipulations absolve Hope and Wyatt?

Is this all the manipulator's fault? Or do the cheaters deserve punishment too?

I think Liam loved haveing two women available ….seems a lot think his cheating should be over looked…he bounced like a rubber ball and impregnated both…liams a cad yet many think he’s cool….I guess depends who the cheater is some are die hard no matter the character cheats…Hope was a idiot rushing into marrying Wyatt but gals not smartest tac and some think of her still as poor little Hope so she gets a pass…Ridge I think has been rewashed so long not many care ….jmo. Manipulation is no pass….they run to another in a wink of a eye…guess they all keep a back up and the women are doormats and allways want them back….would be great if a female on here just moves on like steffy starts new guy family and got a brain ..

Didn't idiot Steffy also rush to marry Wyatt and take Liam back many times? Why only talk about Hope? Steffy is not the "smartest tac" either. And who are the "many" and "lot" and "some" you are referring to?

Just a quick question. Consider this situation:
- X and Y are together
- M manipulates X
- X cheats on Y with Z or leaves Y for Z because of M's manipulations
- X learns the truth about M's manipulations
- X leaves Z and goes back to Y

Is X a victim or is X a cheater? I know each case has a few differences, but these situations are always similar.

- Last example was Ridge and Taylor. Thomas manipulated him. Thomas was wrong. But does the fact that Thomas manipulated absolve Ridge? Does it justify how he left Brooke and slept with Taylor, and then how he left Taylor at the altar? Does it justify his lies to both women?
- Another example is Liam and Steffy's kiss in Italy. Bill and Deacon manipulated them. Liam thought Hope left him, so he kissed Steffy and kept it secret in his vows. He learnt Hope didn't leave him after all and stayed with her. Do Bill and Deacon's manipulations absolve Liam and Steffy?
- Another example is Hope and Wyatt's lovemaking in Monte-Carlo. Quinn manipulated them. Hope thought her fiancee wasn't coming, so she slept with Wyatt and married him. She learnt Liam was there and later she left Wyatt. Do Quinn's manipulations absolve Hope and Wyatt?

Is this all the manipulator's fault? Or do the cheaters deserve punishment too?

I think Liam loved haveing two women available ….seems a lot think his cheating should be over looked…he bounced like a rubber ball and impregnated both…liams a cad yet many think he’s cool….I guess depends who the cheater is some are die hard no matter the character cheats…Hope was a idiot rushing into marrying Wyatt but gals not smartest tac and some think of her still as poor little Hope so she gets a pass…Ridge I think has been rewashed so long not many care ….jmo. Manipulation is no pass….they run to another in a wink of a eye…guess they all keep a back up and the women are doormats and allways want them back….would be great if a female on here just moves on like steffy starts new guy family and got a brain ..

Steffy didn't move on because she "got a brain". She moved on because Liam didn't want her. Even when she was with Finn she didn't have a problem sleeping with Liam when he thought Hope was with Thomas. I have zero doubt the idiot (Steffy in case it's not clear) would drop Finn in a heartbeat if Liam told her today that he wants her.